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I continue on my background-Buffy watching spree as I work on a more utilitarian tool for better-organizing my DA2 play-through.
I think I've come up with a vague idea for the fic, but it's a kick that I'm sure I'll get off in a while.
BtVS is one of those things that I forget about completely for a long time but then really enjoy it when I start watching it again.
I have fuzzy memories of watching large swaths of the canon but never all the way through. Part of this is probably owing to the fact that I was most-interested in the series in the days well before Netflix did anything but mail DVDs to people. I have several boxsets of Buffy DVDs, and I vaguely remember using them. I also remember my mother forbidding me to watch it at one point because she overheard the characters talking about sex too much or something.
So it's been around a while in my consciousness. I think I was introduced to it around age 11 or 12 by a friend who was a couple years older.
I'm saying all this to talk about how different one's perspective becomes on high school fiction as one travels through teenager-hood and the 20s decade. Of course, I don't speak for everyone, but it is something that I think about given that (when I am employed) I am an educator sort of person. In theory.
Of course, in BtVS, there is the canon Angel/Buffy ship, which I just watched culminate and sink again tonight. Then, there is the niche and undying ship of Buffy/Giles. One involves an apparently-fairly-young-adult man who is over 200 years old, and the other involves Buffy with her assigned Watcher, a man in a guardianship position who is at least two decades her senior. And honestly, I can't bring it in me to judge people who ship either with any sort of passion, but I guess I also feel compelled to think about my stance on it - both the meh-whatever and the discomfort with them.
Now, I actually like the December/May-fly thing involving human/supernatural creatures. Doctor Who primed me for that, and in an earlier post I talked about how I am definitely seeing some stuff RTD tugged away from the Buffyverse and reused, thematically. My opinion that this definitely happened only increases as I watch more.
However, I don't really know what the point is for Angel being so obviously 5-ish years older than Buffy is, in terms of optics. When they spoke about his past, they mostly talked about when he was Buffy and pals' age - around 18 or so. So unless I have forgotten some plot-specific detail that made them decide to justify casting the character this way, or if they just really wanted David Boreanaz, I think this only exists to portray the visual of a girl in high school with an early-20s man in terms of the ~feel~ of their relationship to ground it back to reality. The thing that makes it feel less creepy, on a scale of creepy, is that it is obviously written in such a way that it was meant to appeal to a largely-peers-with-Buffy audience.
One unqualified positive thing I would like to say about the series is that it starts out being about kids finishing high school but that it actually allowed the characters to mature at a roughly realistic rate. They went to college, and they stopped being in college at some point, and some of them had jobs, and so on. A lot of similar media creates an inertia where high school lasts for eight years for some reason.
Recently, someone on my twitter feed went through a sudden Buffy/Giles phase, too. I think maybe it was their first time with the series, and that was what caught their eye. And to be honest, I think I am not entirely off-board with Buffy/Giles if it developed after he was a guest star on the show. Like, it's a bit weird that they met when she was in high school, but it isn't weirder than Buffy/Angel in the grand scheme of things. It's just a difference of optics, right? Both of them have a significant margin of life experience over her, and I think there is some general consensus with speculative fiction that at some point we stop counting cumulative life experience, because a person just sort of is what they are. Perhaps they are impacted by when they were made ageless or if they were always ageless, but that's a different discussion.
Anyway, I was just thinking about how Angel/Buffy, the canon of these two age-gap ships I see around, is so obviously written to appeal to teenage girls and women who are living through the fantasy of living Buffy's life to some degree or another. Or, if their shipping habits are not quite as self-projection, like mine, then it is still at least Buffy who is more their peer than Angel is. Than Giles would be, had the show gone there.
The other show this brings to mind is Pretty Little Liars, which I went through a binge-habit with sometime around 2014, I think. I really enjoyed it, and I went through a couple of watching-habits with it. I didn't ever finish it, but I did watch a lot of the show. And as far as I know, the show ran for more than four seasons, but the characters never graduated high school until the end of the show? Because I think they did a sequel series where some of them at least went to college. They felt the need to end the show in order to let those poor girls get past age 18 even though the show had gone on for much longer than that. I even remember a meta-joke about it in one episode where one of the characters said to another, "Face it, we're never graduating high school," in response to another's hope that they survived to pass their final exams or something.
Of course, the canon ship in mind there is Aria/Ezra. Since I'm assuming you might be conversational about BtVS from osmosis if you're reading this far, I haven't described the relationship dynamics that much, but to give a brief explanation of Aria/Ezra:
Aria is the daughter of a college professor and they live in a New England college town or suburb of a college town or something. She had been out of town for a year, and shortly after moving back home she stops - alone - to buy herself a cheeseburger at an all-ages pub sort of place near campus. She sits at the bar. An attractive young man walks into the bar and sits down. He sees her, and he's smitten. They get to talking, and some little bit of conversation misleads Ezra into believing that Aria is a sophomore at the college instead of in the high school. I don't remember if she intentionally started the deception, but when she realized it she definitely intentionally prolonged it. They end up in the bathroom where they make out.
Come the first day of school, Ezra finds that this girl is a sophomore in high school. He is her English teacher. Then, the show paints them as star-crossed lovers. They fight it for a while, but they keep getting closer and closer until they give up fighting. It takes a long time before they actually sleep together or anything, but as far as I'm aware Aria is still presented as being about seventeen when they do. They go through this whole process of getting found out by her parents and then trying to make the parents understand. And the narrative does a good job making it compelling, as I recall in wispy memories, but I remember that when I revisited the series a year or two after my initial interest, my hackles were raised where they hadn't been before.
Like, I know that it's just fiction. And I am 100% against censoring the ability to write these sort of stories, especially in a T-rated medium like a TV show of its kind. However, I can't help but think that it's not that the content changed. It's that I'm no longer the intended audience.
And it's completely fine if a person continues to enjoy something when they have outgrown its target demographic. I'm still a fan of several things that are aimed at teenagers, and on a shallow level I even like things like Sesame Street character designs. But I guess over the past few years I have really experienced the shift in perspective in a noticeable way.
Prior to about age 25 and going to grad school to become a teacher - and honestly I could not say which was the bigger influence - I didn't have a hard time continuing to relate to the High School Girl character.
I think a lot of people can relate to teenage characters way up into their 20s and beyond. Particularly if one is invested in "genre fiction," one may find that a lot of available media in those genres has protagonists which skew young. And while I don't want to delve too deeply into why I think that is right now, I think it makes perfect sense, and it rarely has anything to do with someone being abnormally attracted to teenagers or something. Rather, I think it has to do with the fact that cultures in both the "West" and the "East" (I'm thinking about anime as well as genre fiction from western media) tend to glorify youth, if for somewhat nuanced and different reasons.
What I think it boils down to is that being in one's late teens is the first time a person really defines who they are as an individual, yes, but more importantly, they define themselves in terms of their social and communal identity. Being in school forces a person to have a community-identity or to experience the trauma of not having one in a communal setting. And I think that's a very human experience that a lot of people who are going through the motions of having a job in a capitalist society don't experience. In a lot of ways, capitalism and the bullshit culture of professionalism serve to intentionally alienate people from their coworkers because there is always an implicit competition between two people on the same "rung" of the ladder. It is in schools' best interest to foster at least some sense of social contract, decorum, and mutual-care among its students, for crowd control if nothing else, and people who move past that stage in their lives look back and wonder why it felt like the best time to some of them.
Of course, I know a lot of people who hated high school with a burning passion. Maybe they hate teen/high school fiction, or maybe they cling to it as a way to rewrite what hurt them in their minds. In any case, I think that the continued appeal of high school-ish stories is rooted in this.
If a person is watching one of these stories, the real touch-stone characters are the teenagers, no matter what age the viewer is, and that's one thing that made Pretty Little Liars so astounding to me. The first time I watched it, still a bit younger than 25, I was completely enthralled with the Aria/Ezra storyline. It didn't bother me at all.
Now, let me say, even back then I would have been completely opposed to the same thing happening in real life. I would have taken one look at the imbalance of power and reported it to everyone I could think of. But for the purposes of fantasy and suspension of disbelief, I could still let go so completely that I was rooting for them.
If I watch a lot of their scenes now, though, I cringe. I can't help but wish someone would do one of those score-swapping scenes, and then it would be a horror movie where Ezra was 100% a predator taking advantage of Aria over and over for years (however many years this stupid story takes place over). If he weren't polished and wearing a sweater vest and a pressed shirt, it would be one of those things on true crime documentaries where some guy married a 17 year old when he was 30 and kept her prisoner for years.
And I think the show did ultimately end with them together.
I think one thing the show did that really broke the camel's back for me, in my admittedly-dim recollection, is that they did a subplot where Ezra was A. Honestly FFS, I never found out what they were going with after S1, and I guess I will never know now. If it turned out it was the core cast all along, though, I'm calling bullshit.
Anyway, I bring this story up because that was presented in a much more "realistic" space than BtVS is in. And it was entirely through the eyes of the core girl cast. It makes it a lot eerier to me to even imagine that canon ship, now. Having worked as a teacher, it makes my skin crawl.
And the thing is, a lot of Fantis will rail on all the time about Teacher/Student stuff in fiction or anything similar, even if there isn't the issue of one of them being underage, without any experience in that environment from the perspective of the adult. One thing that stands out to me from this lady who was one of my professors in grad school was that she did an entire class on precautioning us against inappropriate Teacher/Student involvement and, in particular, statutory rape. I think she even used a sort of local guy as an example in the form of a newspaper article. She warned us that as long as she was alive, if she found out any of us got in trouble for this, she would shame us in her class, too, or something.
And she proceeded to give a really blunt, realistic talk about it. She focused on the men, but she made sure to say that the women weren't exempt. She talked about how it can be hard as a younger teacher, because your students may be closer in age to you than your established coworkers, and you spend most of your day in a room with kids/teenagers. Now, of course, if the issue is with non-teen kids, then there is a much, much bigger problem, but she talked about how with teenagers and very young teachers, it actually isn't that weird for there to be one-sided or mutual attraction between them.
The thing that I was surprised and impressed by was that she said it wasn't weird or wrong in and of itself to look at a student and think, "That's a handsome young man," or "That's a beautiful young lady." Because teenagers mature at different rates, and teachers are human beings, and our brains and eyes aren't programmed to recognize age-first. The issue is that when one is the adult in the situation, it is one's constant, vigilant responsibility to remember the power disparity and to push away the attraction not from a place of rage and disgust but from a place of caring about your students as people, if that ever happens to you.
Of course, as a teacher gets older, the likelihood that the brain will go "Oh, attractive human," at a teenager lessens exponentially unless there is some kind of maturation issue with the teacher. Again, this can be a minefield. But I guess what I'm saying to even bring all this up is not to ~justify teachers being attracted to students~ or something creepy but to say that there is a means through which to understand "the teacher's point of view" or "the older person's point of view" in a fictional situation like this, for the purposes of escapism.
But as one gets older, particularly when one is in a role of actually being a teacher or other authority figure over young people, one develops a revulsion instinct, I think. And it doesn't happen overnight, and it doesn't necessarily need to completely change a teacher's opinion on fiction, either.
Like I said, I'm not convinced I'm off the former-Teacher/Student train if a ship I liked had that dynamic for some reason. But I guess I just want to say that while I completely understand the reason teenagers and very early 20-somethings like he idea of Teacher/Student, it's developed a sour note for me in a way that other age-gap ships have not, realistic or otherwise.
And while I don't even know if I'm into BtVS enough to ship for more than two minutes at a time, I think another thing that I like about the canon is how it is not so focused on that mystical era of high school that can never be moved beyond lest our main characters shrivel and die that it fails to make its Grown-Up Characters people. I really enjoy Giles as a character, but at this point not as a shipmate for Buffy. I know that I have seen this ship brought up before, and like I said I think I might even have felt some feelings back when I watched it and he showed up again a bit toward the end of the show.
But I think that one thing I find interesting in the bit that I'm watching (S2) is the way in which I have a whole new perspective on Giles - a man in his 40s? - hanging out in a library with a bunch of sixteen/seventeen year olds, utilizing their brains and brawn to fight the forces of evil while trying to referee their social interaction responsibly. It's absolutely hilarious to imagine now that I know, from a teacher's perspective, what wrangling teenagers is like.
Even though I'm mentally Old Now and mostly relate to the teacher role, though, that doesn't mean that I don't still plug myself in to teenage protagonists, and it doesn't mean that I'm suddenly attracted to teenagers unlike some of the current Discourse suggests. Instead, it is relating to a headspace that I think all of us remember, at least a little, and it is - more than that, possibly, for me anyway - about looking at the world as a place that was not governed by avoiding ruining one's economic prospects. Of course, being unemployed and not knowing what I'll ever have a real job again probably impacts this a lot, but I know that if there is anything appealing about the fantasy of being a teenager again, it is the fantasy of being able to 'go back' and experience a time where those pressures of capitalism and professionalism simply hadn't crystallized yet. Then, maybe, I would grow into an adult who was better-equipped for them.
Or maybe, if I was a superhero teen, I would bring the whole rotten system down.
I think that's one reason I like The Society, as a teenage fantasy, because since it establishes that every single person around is between 16 and 18, it sort of removes some of the current trappings of society only to place new ones on them. They have to figure out trial and error with systems of government and self-management, and they are recognizing that they are "just kids," but also recognizing that they are "the adults now." And honestly, I think there are whole fields of study, or at least whole fields of think-piece articles, about how Millennials have kind of never been allowed to stop feeling that.
Anyway, I'm really sad that Netflix retracted The Society's renewal.
What as I saying?
I think I've come up with a vague idea for the fic, but it's a kick that I'm sure I'll get off in a while.
BtVS is one of those things that I forget about completely for a long time but then really enjoy it when I start watching it again.
I have fuzzy memories of watching large swaths of the canon but never all the way through. Part of this is probably owing to the fact that I was most-interested in the series in the days well before Netflix did anything but mail DVDs to people. I have several boxsets of Buffy DVDs, and I vaguely remember using them. I also remember my mother forbidding me to watch it at one point because she overheard the characters talking about sex too much or something.
So it's been around a while in my consciousness. I think I was introduced to it around age 11 or 12 by a friend who was a couple years older.
I'm saying all this to talk about how different one's perspective becomes on high school fiction as one travels through teenager-hood and the 20s decade. Of course, I don't speak for everyone, but it is something that I think about given that (when I am employed) I am an educator sort of person. In theory.
Of course, in BtVS, there is the canon Angel/Buffy ship, which I just watched culminate and sink again tonight. Then, there is the niche and undying ship of Buffy/Giles. One involves an apparently-fairly-young-adult man who is over 200 years old, and the other involves Buffy with her assigned Watcher, a man in a guardianship position who is at least two decades her senior. And honestly, I can't bring it in me to judge people who ship either with any sort of passion, but I guess I also feel compelled to think about my stance on it - both the meh-whatever and the discomfort with them.
Now, I actually like the December/May-fly thing involving human/supernatural creatures. Doctor Who primed me for that, and in an earlier post I talked about how I am definitely seeing some stuff RTD tugged away from the Buffyverse and reused, thematically. My opinion that this definitely happened only increases as I watch more.
However, I don't really know what the point is for Angel being so obviously 5-ish years older than Buffy is, in terms of optics. When they spoke about his past, they mostly talked about when he was Buffy and pals' age - around 18 or so. So unless I have forgotten some plot-specific detail that made them decide to justify casting the character this way, or if they just really wanted David Boreanaz, I think this only exists to portray the visual of a girl in high school with an early-20s man in terms of the ~feel~ of their relationship to ground it back to reality. The thing that makes it feel less creepy, on a scale of creepy, is that it is obviously written in such a way that it was meant to appeal to a largely-peers-with-Buffy audience.
One unqualified positive thing I would like to say about the series is that it starts out being about kids finishing high school but that it actually allowed the characters to mature at a roughly realistic rate. They went to college, and they stopped being in college at some point, and some of them had jobs, and so on. A lot of similar media creates an inertia where high school lasts for eight years for some reason.
Recently, someone on my twitter feed went through a sudden Buffy/Giles phase, too. I think maybe it was their first time with the series, and that was what caught their eye. And to be honest, I think I am not entirely off-board with Buffy/Giles if it developed after he was a guest star on the show. Like, it's a bit weird that they met when she was in high school, but it isn't weirder than Buffy/Angel in the grand scheme of things. It's just a difference of optics, right? Both of them have a significant margin of life experience over her, and I think there is some general consensus with speculative fiction that at some point we stop counting cumulative life experience, because a person just sort of is what they are. Perhaps they are impacted by when they were made ageless or if they were always ageless, but that's a different discussion.
Anyway, I was just thinking about how Angel/Buffy, the canon of these two age-gap ships I see around, is so obviously written to appeal to teenage girls and women who are living through the fantasy of living Buffy's life to some degree or another. Or, if their shipping habits are not quite as self-projection, like mine, then it is still at least Buffy who is more their peer than Angel is. Than Giles would be, had the show gone there.
The other show this brings to mind is Pretty Little Liars, which I went through a binge-habit with sometime around 2014, I think. I really enjoyed it, and I went through a couple of watching-habits with it. I didn't ever finish it, but I did watch a lot of the show. And as far as I know, the show ran for more than four seasons, but the characters never graduated high school until the end of the show? Because I think they did a sequel series where some of them at least went to college. They felt the need to end the show in order to let those poor girls get past age 18 even though the show had gone on for much longer than that. I even remember a meta-joke about it in one episode where one of the characters said to another, "Face it, we're never graduating high school," in response to another's hope that they survived to pass their final exams or something.
Of course, the canon ship in mind there is Aria/Ezra. Since I'm assuming you might be conversational about BtVS from osmosis if you're reading this far, I haven't described the relationship dynamics that much, but to give a brief explanation of Aria/Ezra:
Aria is the daughter of a college professor and they live in a New England college town or suburb of a college town or something. She had been out of town for a year, and shortly after moving back home she stops - alone - to buy herself a cheeseburger at an all-ages pub sort of place near campus. She sits at the bar. An attractive young man walks into the bar and sits down. He sees her, and he's smitten. They get to talking, and some little bit of conversation misleads Ezra into believing that Aria is a sophomore at the college instead of in the high school. I don't remember if she intentionally started the deception, but when she realized it she definitely intentionally prolonged it. They end up in the bathroom where they make out.
Come the first day of school, Ezra finds that this girl is a sophomore in high school. He is her English teacher. Then, the show paints them as star-crossed lovers. They fight it for a while, but they keep getting closer and closer until they give up fighting. It takes a long time before they actually sleep together or anything, but as far as I'm aware Aria is still presented as being about seventeen when they do. They go through this whole process of getting found out by her parents and then trying to make the parents understand. And the narrative does a good job making it compelling, as I recall in wispy memories, but I remember that when I revisited the series a year or two after my initial interest, my hackles were raised where they hadn't been before.
Like, I know that it's just fiction. And I am 100% against censoring the ability to write these sort of stories, especially in a T-rated medium like a TV show of its kind. However, I can't help but think that it's not that the content changed. It's that I'm no longer the intended audience.
And it's completely fine if a person continues to enjoy something when they have outgrown its target demographic. I'm still a fan of several things that are aimed at teenagers, and on a shallow level I even like things like Sesame Street character designs. But I guess over the past few years I have really experienced the shift in perspective in a noticeable way.
Prior to about age 25 and going to grad school to become a teacher - and honestly I could not say which was the bigger influence - I didn't have a hard time continuing to relate to the High School Girl character.
I think a lot of people can relate to teenage characters way up into their 20s and beyond. Particularly if one is invested in "genre fiction," one may find that a lot of available media in those genres has protagonists which skew young. And while I don't want to delve too deeply into why I think that is right now, I think it makes perfect sense, and it rarely has anything to do with someone being abnormally attracted to teenagers or something. Rather, I think it has to do with the fact that cultures in both the "West" and the "East" (I'm thinking about anime as well as genre fiction from western media) tend to glorify youth, if for somewhat nuanced and different reasons.
What I think it boils down to is that being in one's late teens is the first time a person really defines who they are as an individual, yes, but more importantly, they define themselves in terms of their social and communal identity. Being in school forces a person to have a community-identity or to experience the trauma of not having one in a communal setting. And I think that's a very human experience that a lot of people who are going through the motions of having a job in a capitalist society don't experience. In a lot of ways, capitalism and the bullshit culture of professionalism serve to intentionally alienate people from their coworkers because there is always an implicit competition between two people on the same "rung" of the ladder. It is in schools' best interest to foster at least some sense of social contract, decorum, and mutual-care among its students, for crowd control if nothing else, and people who move past that stage in their lives look back and wonder why it felt like the best time to some of them.
Of course, I know a lot of people who hated high school with a burning passion. Maybe they hate teen/high school fiction, or maybe they cling to it as a way to rewrite what hurt them in their minds. In any case, I think that the continued appeal of high school-ish stories is rooted in this.
If a person is watching one of these stories, the real touch-stone characters are the teenagers, no matter what age the viewer is, and that's one thing that made Pretty Little Liars so astounding to me. The first time I watched it, still a bit younger than 25, I was completely enthralled with the Aria/Ezra storyline. It didn't bother me at all.
Now, let me say, even back then I would have been completely opposed to the same thing happening in real life. I would have taken one look at the imbalance of power and reported it to everyone I could think of. But for the purposes of fantasy and suspension of disbelief, I could still let go so completely that I was rooting for them.
If I watch a lot of their scenes now, though, I cringe. I can't help but wish someone would do one of those score-swapping scenes, and then it would be a horror movie where Ezra was 100% a predator taking advantage of Aria over and over for years (however many years this stupid story takes place over). If he weren't polished and wearing a sweater vest and a pressed shirt, it would be one of those things on true crime documentaries where some guy married a 17 year old when he was 30 and kept her prisoner for years.
And I think the show did ultimately end with them together.
I think one thing the show did that really broke the camel's back for me, in my admittedly-dim recollection, is that they did a subplot where Ezra was A. Honestly FFS, I never found out what they were going with after S1, and I guess I will never know now. If it turned out it was the core cast all along, though, I'm calling bullshit.
Anyway, I bring this story up because that was presented in a much more "realistic" space than BtVS is in. And it was entirely through the eyes of the core girl cast. It makes it a lot eerier to me to even imagine that canon ship, now. Having worked as a teacher, it makes my skin crawl.
And the thing is, a lot of Fantis will rail on all the time about Teacher/Student stuff in fiction or anything similar, even if there isn't the issue of one of them being underage, without any experience in that environment from the perspective of the adult. One thing that stands out to me from this lady who was one of my professors in grad school was that she did an entire class on precautioning us against inappropriate Teacher/Student involvement and, in particular, statutory rape. I think she even used a sort of local guy as an example in the form of a newspaper article. She warned us that as long as she was alive, if she found out any of us got in trouble for this, she would shame us in her class, too, or something.
And she proceeded to give a really blunt, realistic talk about it. She focused on the men, but she made sure to say that the women weren't exempt. She talked about how it can be hard as a younger teacher, because your students may be closer in age to you than your established coworkers, and you spend most of your day in a room with kids/teenagers. Now, of course, if the issue is with non-teen kids, then there is a much, much bigger problem, but she talked about how with teenagers and very young teachers, it actually isn't that weird for there to be one-sided or mutual attraction between them.
The thing that I was surprised and impressed by was that she said it wasn't weird or wrong in and of itself to look at a student and think, "That's a handsome young man," or "That's a beautiful young lady." Because teenagers mature at different rates, and teachers are human beings, and our brains and eyes aren't programmed to recognize age-first. The issue is that when one is the adult in the situation, it is one's constant, vigilant responsibility to remember the power disparity and to push away the attraction not from a place of rage and disgust but from a place of caring about your students as people, if that ever happens to you.
Of course, as a teacher gets older, the likelihood that the brain will go "Oh, attractive human," at a teenager lessens exponentially unless there is some kind of maturation issue with the teacher. Again, this can be a minefield. But I guess what I'm saying to even bring all this up is not to ~justify teachers being attracted to students~ or something creepy but to say that there is a means through which to understand "the teacher's point of view" or "the older person's point of view" in a fictional situation like this, for the purposes of escapism.
But as one gets older, particularly when one is in a role of actually being a teacher or other authority figure over young people, one develops a revulsion instinct, I think. And it doesn't happen overnight, and it doesn't necessarily need to completely change a teacher's opinion on fiction, either.
Like I said, I'm not convinced I'm off the former-Teacher/Student train if a ship I liked had that dynamic for some reason. But I guess I just want to say that while I completely understand the reason teenagers and very early 20-somethings like he idea of Teacher/Student, it's developed a sour note for me in a way that other age-gap ships have not, realistic or otherwise.
And while I don't even know if I'm into BtVS enough to ship for more than two minutes at a time, I think another thing that I like about the canon is how it is not so focused on that mystical era of high school that can never be moved beyond lest our main characters shrivel and die that it fails to make its Grown-Up Characters people. I really enjoy Giles as a character, but at this point not as a shipmate for Buffy. I know that I have seen this ship brought up before, and like I said I think I might even have felt some feelings back when I watched it and he showed up again a bit toward the end of the show.
But I think that one thing I find interesting in the bit that I'm watching (S2) is the way in which I have a whole new perspective on Giles - a man in his 40s? - hanging out in a library with a bunch of sixteen/seventeen year olds, utilizing their brains and brawn to fight the forces of evil while trying to referee their social interaction responsibly. It's absolutely hilarious to imagine now that I know, from a teacher's perspective, what wrangling teenagers is like.
Even though I'm mentally Old Now and mostly relate to the teacher role, though, that doesn't mean that I don't still plug myself in to teenage protagonists, and it doesn't mean that I'm suddenly attracted to teenagers unlike some of the current Discourse suggests. Instead, it is relating to a headspace that I think all of us remember, at least a little, and it is - more than that, possibly, for me anyway - about looking at the world as a place that was not governed by avoiding ruining one's economic prospects. Of course, being unemployed and not knowing what I'll ever have a real job again probably impacts this a lot, but I know that if there is anything appealing about the fantasy of being a teenager again, it is the fantasy of being able to 'go back' and experience a time where those pressures of capitalism and professionalism simply hadn't crystallized yet. Then, maybe, I would grow into an adult who was better-equipped for them.
Or maybe, if I was a superhero teen, I would bring the whole rotten system down.
I think that's one reason I like The Society, as a teenage fantasy, because since it establishes that every single person around is between 16 and 18, it sort of removes some of the current trappings of society only to place new ones on them. They have to figure out trial and error with systems of government and self-management, and they are recognizing that they are "just kids," but also recognizing that they are "the adults now." And honestly, I think there are whole fields of study, or at least whole fields of think-piece articles, about how Millennials have kind of never been allowed to stop feeling that.
Anyway, I'm really sad that Netflix retracted The Society's renewal.
What as I saying?
no subject
Date: 2020-09-27 11:25 am (UTC)From:I always thought Spike was misunderstood and kind of struggled with his feelings and all because he had bullied way before when he was first a vampire and kinda had a "glow up" and tried to be everything he admired or wanted to be (which obviously is his downfall to an extent). I dunno the love/hate between Buffy/Spike was always really appealing to me. Maybe it's because they both had a really coy sense of humor and Angel was kind of dark/serious/brooding and was an asshole to Darla...OTL like holy fuck.
I remember a lot of people (even before ol' CassClaire) associated Draco Malfoy with Spike and kind of based a lot of Hermione/Draco off the inspiration of Spike/Buffy way back in the day and I can definitely see how that would parallel. Draco is like Spike and could be seen as too easily picking on the girl he likes (it's a stupid trope but kinda true and JK even confirmed that Draco was actually super smart/proficent in his studies so Hermione would potentially be his rival academically) and both Buffy and Hermione are the type of girls who are witty/don't take shit and kind of humble down men like Draco and Spike. LOL I dunno I just vividly remember people really rolling with that and every time manage to watch scene from Buffy (as spoilers rather than the whole ass series sometimes because so much of it feels very filler-y) I end up really looking forward to Spike because he's really fucking hilarious and a big ol' softie. Some of the writing for the show back in the day for it was really cheesy though. Good gawd. I was kind like fanfiction for television its own right... I wish I had been a little bit older to fully appreciate the series. I didn't get into it until into my twenties and still haven't made time to finish it.
HOWEVER..I have never ever heard of the Buffy/Giles ship. I can kind of see how people could see that but blehh that would be so...manipulative considering I've always seen Giles as Buffy's father figure and mentor. Last I recall, Buffy's mom is in the picture but not her father so I always assumed Giles kind of filled that role for her so it's weird seeing it as a ship. I know we could argue the vampire thing but they don't take on such a large mentorship role. Spike and Angel are kind of Buffy's rival or allie (whichever) than mentor. Angel discloses information to Buffy in season one but honestly I lowkey hated how pompous he was. lmao. I dunno something about him irritates me.
It's interesting seeing you talk about about Buffy though! Yay a fandom I kinda know to an extent.
I know Pretty Little Liars got an alt season recently or some shit. I dunno why but it kind of reminds me of a better-thought out Gossip Girl? I painstakingly gritted by teeth through GG because I adored Taylor Momsen and I loved little J/Jenny getting a come up as an underdog and becoming post post Blair reign. And I really loved Jenny/Nate and of course Chuck/Blaire because for some reason I like couples who kind of banter. Probably because it makes the plot run longer and I love bad guys getting a redemption arc. <3 I've never watched Pretty Little Liars but I remember it being really effing popular back in the day.
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Date: 2020-09-28 05:32 am (UTC)From:Not sure what you're asking about Angel's casting. You think he's too old looking or too young?
His starting narrative role was probably to be Buffy's dark love interest, probably with that combination of "plausible yet a bit off-putting", so I think being very handsome ("vampire with the face of an angel") and in his apparent late teens or early 20sis perfect. It's not uncommon for girls to go for somewhat older men, with or without supposed daddy issues from a missing father. If he looked older it would be less appealing for fans, if he looked just her age it wouldn't have the initial edge.
There's also that SMG was older than the character she was playing: season 1 is in sophomore year of high school, so she's supposed to be 15-16, but was played by a 20 year old. Buffy turns 17 in "Surprise"... so her sex with Angel is statutory rape in California, though not in most US states. But anyway, we're *told* she's a teenager but doesn't *look* like one; if you just compared SMG to Boreanaz, they don't look different ages.
Later we get Dawn, a 15 yo character played by an actual 15yo actress, which was kind of whiplash. I suspect a difference in makeup and warddrobe as well -- Dawn looked like a typical teen in a way Buffy et al. never did. (Willow's actress was 23 in season 1, Xander's actor 26! ...I was wrong about Boreanaz though, he was 28 to SMG's 20. Given his backtory, I would think Angel was turned vampire more around age 18, though that backstory probably didn't exist in detail from the beginning.
As for teen character identification: I imagine it's easier for adults to remember having been teens than for teens to imagine being adults. So if you want to maximize your potential audience, and aren't counting children, you go for teens.
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Date: 2020-09-29 03:12 am (UTC)From: