![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
Finished up watching the first "episode" / mini-movie of Stargate SG-1 again.
Of course, I have a shipping agenda but beyond that I have to say that my favorite scene in the whole thing is when Jack takes Daniel back to his house and they're just talking.
There is something so... the world I was born into about Jack's house. Idk if it's 90s or not. You still see it around old mom and pop restaurants that haven't been really redecorated in years.
And the whole scene just feels so real.
Daniel's emotions throughout the episode are so real and raw when he's talking about Sha're and needing to get her back.
It also makes me wonder about Daniel's personality and character and stuff, because there are times when he is distracting himself or focused on a task at hand that those emotions don't seem to carry over much at all. For example, when they first arrive at the planet where Chulac is, he really wants to tell Jack what a particular symbol on the DHD represents, and it's pretty much the only thing he's thinking about rather than going on immediately to find Sha're.
I don't necessarily think this is character inconsistency. It feels a little disjointed, but I almost feel like that's part of Daniel?
I really want to make myself rewatch the original Stargate movie. I'm now extremely attached to the SG-1 performances of Jack and Daniel, but I am suddenly really invested in Sha're's original character performance. I remember reading a bit of meta about the original film years ago and how it was "Sha're's Revolution." I forget how they originally spelled her name. Sha'uri? or something?
I think they said they justified changing her name to something a bit easier to spell and roll off the tongue by saying it was some kind of unmarried versus unmarried naming convention. Sure, whatever.
It's strange when I look back at stuff from the "slash" era of fandom.
There has been a backlash in recent years against m/m-focused fandom in some areas. I'm pretty sure it's connected to radfem rhetoric, whether people realize that it is or not. It's sort of like there is this insidious undergrowth to fair points made in the tumblr-era of fandom that is actively harmful and genuinely hateful toward men/maleness/masculinity that is just... so not helpful. I will hate separatist rhetoric with a burning passion until the end.
But going back to the "fair point" bit.
I think that prior to mainstream media sometimes granting a sort of only-when-approved LGBT+ representation, the way in which people approached shipping same-gender couples together was quite different. I was on the SG-1 TVTropes fanfic rec page and noting this when I was reading a little bit. It's sort of like there was often (not always) little attention to gender itself and that sometimes this means that a character's internal voice will almost be transgressive to their outward/performed/canon gender in a way that I do not think is exactly conscious or intentional on the author's part. I'm not saying this is bad. It's just an interesting thing that exists.
Basically this pervasive attitude of a gender-blind kind of story-telling and reading of the relationship if not the sexuality involved.
I think this is kind of really common in a pre-mainstream-LGBT-rep world for several reasons.
It is true that a lot of this was fantasy and wish fulfillment on the part of at least het-socialized, AFAB people. In a world where this kind of thing did not have a lot of resources or public discussion yet, even online, this means you fold in the issues of things like AFAB people who are transmen expressing themselves, queer girls in general projecting their nascent experiences onto male characters, and, indeed, a naive sort of fetishization of m/m relationships on the part of het girls who had a lot of internalized misogyny and found a way around it through slash.
It's a really odd thing to see all of that still together in a blob in old but still accessible fandom and even within my own memories of being involved in the SG1 fandom a bit back about a decade ago.
At some point between then and now, largely around the time a lot of the tumblrites I followed where getting extremely disillusioned with their once-beloved BBC Sherlock in the gap between S1 and S2 of that show, there was a sudden push-back against the m/m centered world of fandom shipping. Fans were becoming more aware that sidelining all female characters for the sake of m/m ships was a vicious cycle.
The argument basically went that one reason homosocial, male relationships were "deeper" and "better written" in mainstream media is because that was what sold and that it basically hadn't changed since Ancient Greece when women were viewed as children/babymakers/property all in one and that a man's true loving relationships were to be with men while your wife was kind of like your pet.
And whew boy is there a Good Point (TM) but also a lot to unpack there.
And saying that, therefore, all people (especially women-aligned people) who ship m/m are some kind of gender traitors is beyond throwing out the baby with the bathwater, imo.
I do think there was something to be said, though, about the fact that people wrote off female characters as shallow, one dimensional, stereotyped, whatever, because of (internalized) misogyny and the fact that this did affect the "queer baiting" and overall treatment of female "love interest" characters in the days before companies started learning to follow the Trends on twitter or whatever.
I'm extremely happy that broader representation across the gender spectrum and sexuality spectrum is becoming more popular and accepted. On the other hand, until it involves the writers and the crew and everyone, it's always going to feel a little bit Writing By Committee and an aspect of corporate manipulation and cynicism.
And that is why I think that fan-writing for m/m or any queer/non-mainstream relationship (e.g. polyamory) has a heart to it that even out much easier to obtain "rep" lacks at times.
The point with regard to SG1 is that I have always been torn between my Jack/Daniel leanings and the fact that Daniel/Sha're is this weird but interesting example of something that lampshades its own issues in such a way that I find it heartfelt and real.
The fact that Sha're was a "gift" from her "primitive culture" to the White Savior that Daniel turned out to inadvertently become to these people is toned down by the fact that Sha're is clearly the driving force behind their relationship.
"Forever in a Day" is still one of the most haunting episodes I have ever seen on television because of what might have been, what could have been had, if Sha're had been allowed to remain a part of the show.
It seems like she was always meant to be the Fridged Girlfriend or Gwen Stacy trope, and yet one wonders what might have happened if personal matters behind the scenes hadn't gotten kind of weird.
But yeah, I really liked the fact that they sort of tried to acknowledge the White Savior trope and then tear it down a bit, though they still sort of treated Daniel and Sha're like their leaders. I mean, I guess Sha're is the daughter of their actual chief guy, right?
And Skaara is her brother? For some reason I believed this but they didn't actually mention it in this episode. Was that in the original movie, a show edition, or just a misapprehension on my part?
Of course, I have a shipping agenda but beyond that I have to say that my favorite scene in the whole thing is when Jack takes Daniel back to his house and they're just talking.
There is something so... the world I was born into about Jack's house. Idk if it's 90s or not. You still see it around old mom and pop restaurants that haven't been really redecorated in years.
And the whole scene just feels so real.
Daniel's emotions throughout the episode are so real and raw when he's talking about Sha're and needing to get her back.
It also makes me wonder about Daniel's personality and character and stuff, because there are times when he is distracting himself or focused on a task at hand that those emotions don't seem to carry over much at all. For example, when they first arrive at the planet where Chulac is, he really wants to tell Jack what a particular symbol on the DHD represents, and it's pretty much the only thing he's thinking about rather than going on immediately to find Sha're.
I don't necessarily think this is character inconsistency. It feels a little disjointed, but I almost feel like that's part of Daniel?
I really want to make myself rewatch the original Stargate movie. I'm now extremely attached to the SG-1 performances of Jack and Daniel, but I am suddenly really invested in Sha're's original character performance. I remember reading a bit of meta about the original film years ago and how it was "Sha're's Revolution." I forget how they originally spelled her name. Sha'uri? or something?
I think they said they justified changing her name to something a bit easier to spell and roll off the tongue by saying it was some kind of unmarried versus unmarried naming convention. Sure, whatever.
It's strange when I look back at stuff from the "slash" era of fandom.
There has been a backlash in recent years against m/m-focused fandom in some areas. I'm pretty sure it's connected to radfem rhetoric, whether people realize that it is or not. It's sort of like there is this insidious undergrowth to fair points made in the tumblr-era of fandom that is actively harmful and genuinely hateful toward men/maleness/masculinity that is just... so not helpful. I will hate separatist rhetoric with a burning passion until the end.
But going back to the "fair point" bit.
I think that prior to mainstream media sometimes granting a sort of only-when-approved LGBT+ representation, the way in which people approached shipping same-gender couples together was quite different. I was on the SG-1 TVTropes fanfic rec page and noting this when I was reading a little bit. It's sort of like there was often (not always) little attention to gender itself and that sometimes this means that a character's internal voice will almost be transgressive to their outward/performed/canon gender in a way that I do not think is exactly conscious or intentional on the author's part. I'm not saying this is bad. It's just an interesting thing that exists.
Basically this pervasive attitude of a gender-blind kind of story-telling and reading of the relationship if not the sexuality involved.
I think this is kind of really common in a pre-mainstream-LGBT-rep world for several reasons.
It is true that a lot of this was fantasy and wish fulfillment on the part of at least het-socialized, AFAB people. In a world where this kind of thing did not have a lot of resources or public discussion yet, even online, this means you fold in the issues of things like AFAB people who are transmen expressing themselves, queer girls in general projecting their nascent experiences onto male characters, and, indeed, a naive sort of fetishization of m/m relationships on the part of het girls who had a lot of internalized misogyny and found a way around it through slash.
It's a really odd thing to see all of that still together in a blob in old but still accessible fandom and even within my own memories of being involved in the SG1 fandom a bit back about a decade ago.
At some point between then and now, largely around the time a lot of the tumblrites I followed where getting extremely disillusioned with their once-beloved BBC Sherlock in the gap between S1 and S2 of that show, there was a sudden push-back against the m/m centered world of fandom shipping. Fans were becoming more aware that sidelining all female characters for the sake of m/m ships was a vicious cycle.
The argument basically went that one reason homosocial, male relationships were "deeper" and "better written" in mainstream media is because that was what sold and that it basically hadn't changed since Ancient Greece when women were viewed as children/babymakers/property all in one and that a man's true loving relationships were to be with men while your wife was kind of like your pet.
And whew boy is there a Good Point (TM) but also a lot to unpack there.
And saying that, therefore, all people (especially women-aligned people) who ship m/m are some kind of gender traitors is beyond throwing out the baby with the bathwater, imo.
I do think there was something to be said, though, about the fact that people wrote off female characters as shallow, one dimensional, stereotyped, whatever, because of (internalized) misogyny and the fact that this did affect the "queer baiting" and overall treatment of female "love interest" characters in the days before companies started learning to follow the Trends on twitter or whatever.
I'm extremely happy that broader representation across the gender spectrum and sexuality spectrum is becoming more popular and accepted. On the other hand, until it involves the writers and the crew and everyone, it's always going to feel a little bit Writing By Committee and an aspect of corporate manipulation and cynicism.
And that is why I think that fan-writing for m/m or any queer/non-mainstream relationship (e.g. polyamory) has a heart to it that even out much easier to obtain "rep" lacks at times.
The point with regard to SG1 is that I have always been torn between my Jack/Daniel leanings and the fact that Daniel/Sha're is this weird but interesting example of something that lampshades its own issues in such a way that I find it heartfelt and real.
The fact that Sha're was a "gift" from her "primitive culture" to the White Savior that Daniel turned out to inadvertently become to these people is toned down by the fact that Sha're is clearly the driving force behind their relationship.
"Forever in a Day" is still one of the most haunting episodes I have ever seen on television because of what might have been, what could have been had, if Sha're had been allowed to remain a part of the show.
It seems like she was always meant to be the Fridged Girlfriend or Gwen Stacy trope, and yet one wonders what might have happened if personal matters behind the scenes hadn't gotten kind of weird.
But yeah, I really liked the fact that they sort of tried to acknowledge the White Savior trope and then tear it down a bit, though they still sort of treated Daniel and Sha're like their leaders. I mean, I guess Sha're is the daughter of their actual chief guy, right?
And Skaara is her brother? For some reason I believed this but they didn't actually mention it in this episode. Was that in the original movie, a show edition, or just a misapprehension on my part?
no subject
Date: 2021-05-07 02:47 pm (UTC)From:I am a huge Jack/Daniel shipper but I would have loved it so much if the show had managed to save her. As the show went on the actors took such better care of the characters than the writers did!!!!
I love the show, though. So much.
I think you would enjoy the movie, especially as in the first season Shanks intentionally built his characterization from what Spader did in the movie. Shau'ri in the movie is awesome too and there's no real plausible reason for changing the spelling of her name. It's just ????.
no subject
Date: 2021-05-08 09:11 am (UTC)From:I remember feeling like at some point around S7 I lost my ravenous interest in it when I first got into SG-1 back when I did. Would you care to elaborate about what you mean?
And I actually have seen the original Stargate movie! It's just been a really, really long time since I watched it. I got very attached to the SG-1 characterizations of the characters, though as you mentioned Daniel's changed far less in the transition. I love what RDA did with Jack so much, though.
I think that someone did say that their justification for changing her name spelling and pronunciation was to make it "easier" to say, but that's so weird because they have so many strange and hard to pronounce things.
I do wonder how different things might have been had Sha're and Daniel's actors not had a real-life baby together, lol. Did you know about that?
no subject
Date: 2021-05-08 12:40 pm (UTC)From:It just seemed like some of the writing became rather cliche as the show went on. They had this great premise and pretty much unlimited possibilities for plot and worldbuilding. But they didn't seem to be able to, for example, to do anything with Daniel's girlfriends other than have them get taken over by Goa'ulds. That happened to three of the women Daniel's character was involved with. That got old.
I think as the show went on they had fewer and fewer writers involved; the same small group of people wrote it and I think it got kind of stale. The period in the show where they focused on the Goa'uld coming to Earth made it way less interesting than space/planet/alien exploration. I thought that whole plot line was a mistake.
Also toward the end the writers and producers were clearly distracted by Atlantis and the writing for SG1 suffered accordingly. I felt the whole King Arthur/Merlin thing was also a mistake.
But these are quibbles. I love the show so much and especially Jack/Daniel.
no subject
Date: 2021-05-08 12:02 am (UTC)From:Traditionally there were two different types of slash fans: those that just wanted to slash two characters they found hot, and those who were more particular in their pairings. In the former case, I see nothing wrong with straight women wanting to read about two men, in a similar way to men wanting f/f porn. Sometimes there is underlying misogyny other times there isn't although there does seem to be shaming going on in some circles. I do get that things always swing to the other side of a spectrum before a better balance can be found. 'Romance' stories are a genre apart not just in mainstream but also in fannish areas. Love it or hate it, well my philosophy is don't read it if it's not your thing, but then I'm old school.
no subject
Date: 2021-05-08 09:17 am (UTC)From:I am not entirely immune to purely visual/immediate attraction, but I definitely fall on the side of the character dynamic needing to appeal to me. It's in how they look at each other, not how they look to me so much, if that makes sense.
I even sometimes ship characters at least one of whom I actively do not find attractive.
It's totally fine for people to read m/m just because they find it hot, but I think that there is a distinction between total PWP, just-because-it's-this-kink reading and reading two characters interacting, sexually or otherwise. I guess I'm rarely interested in ship fic that is just because it fills a certain kink box, and on the rare occasions I have sought out a kink tag rather than a character tag I usually end up disappointed, confused, uncomfortable or all three lol.
I'm just not personally a fan of flat sort of porn-plot paperdoll characterization in most cases if one is gonna bother with it being based on known characters at all?
no subject
Date: 2021-05-08 03:24 pm (UTC)From:I'm not a fan of PWPs either. Luckily there's plenty of fanfic of all sorts and helpful tags on AO3 we we can read what we want and avoid what we don't (granted authors don't always use them well enough). And of course those unfortunate times when we get into a fandom and almost everyone else is into a completely different ship... To each their own.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I find them attractive at the time I'm really into the show, but years down the line I sometimes look back and say, you know, that person wasn't really good looking at all what did I see in them?! LOL.
no subject
Date: 2021-05-08 03:00 am (UTC)From:I really love that fandom is embracing the many ways two (or more) people can love each other, and how gender and sexuality and all manner of things can effect that. While fandom is getting more progressive in that manner, the purity culture that's grabbed hold has really set us back, I think.
The whole "women characters and how they're treated in fandom" thing is so complicated. Because I do think there are people on both sides. The whole, "I don't like female characters because they're not fleshed out and/or interesting" thing is...I mean, Hawkeye/Coulson from the MCU is a huge ship and neither character was all that explored (in the movies, anyway). So I can see some people being in it for the hot men. But I also think there ARE fans out there who require a hook, an emotional connection to characters to be able to ship them, so they don't take much of an interest in female characters because there isn't a hook. There are women who do hate female characters for "getting in the way" of their ship, and others who go where the chemistry is.
I think it would have been AMAZING to have Sha're saved, and touch on her journey of recovery. Breaking the mold! I'm a Jack/Daniel shipper too, but I think...idk, it would have been interesting if they'd saved Sha're, but after all she's been through, she's changed and grown. And so has Daniel. When you spend that much time apart, feelings can fade, you know? Daniel feels responsible for her and he'll always love her, but he's not *in* love with her anymore. It would have been great to see a tv show actually tackle the nuance and complications of human emotions.
no subject
Date: 2021-05-08 09:29 am (UTC)From:I am so fixated on his giant wooden spoon and fork. I feel like I have seen those exact things on Mom-and-Pop restaurant walls all my life??
Also, depressing note: Sometimes the fact that people spend time in each other's houses and stuff in fiction is starting to feel more surreal and strange than the sci-fi aspect of it. COVID has been a huge part of that, but also the advent of instantaneous communication either through text, voice, or video, was taking its toll on visiting people or spending time together in "real life" even before that. And I'm not innocent of preferring distanced, relatively "low stakes" communication even when it feels like a normal amount of "stakes" to me. I have ended up in a situation where I literally don't know anyone my age-ish locally because of that shit, even before now.
I mentioned that I think radfem rhetoric really in an almost calculated way piggybacked on people's concerns. For example:
Normal Tumblrite Becoming More Aware of Gender Inequity in Media and Real Life: Hey, maybe this focusing entirely on the male characters thing has some consequences, and maybe if we showed more interest in the female characters and didn't exclude their importance, the Media Machine would notice and actually give us more than scraps in positive female representation!
A Radfem Parasite, slithering up to push it off a cliff: Yes, yes, but what if we started to vilify all male characters for being male? What if we said men don't matter? What if we decided that ONLY f/f ships were valid? It's OUR TURN. Only women and femininity matter. OR femininity is bad and just WOMEN as a concept matter.
Or something.
Your point about the Hawkeye/Coulson ship is absolutely wild. I had forgotten about that. Hawkeye in the MCU was so poorly handled that people rarely even refer to him by NAME. Just "Hawkeye." I was truly mystified by that ship.
I guess the thing with "emotional hook" is subjective. I totally need an emotional hook, and if someone never finds an emotional hook with a female character compelling then I would ask them to examine why that is.
Is the media they're consuming passively or actively misogynistic?
Or do they, as an audience member/person, have a problem with women/female characters? If so, what is that problem? Is it with women, how they're written, etc.?
I mean it's not necessary for a person to be in Critical Engagement Mode all the time, but I guess I just want to philosophically pull at that thread a bit.
I have to admit that my immediate reaction to this was "Bu-But no! That's too painful!"
And then there was the thought of a sort of Whedon move where bisexuality doesn't really exist and that Willow realizing she was in love with Tara meant that she would never be capable of being attracted to or in love with a man again or something.
But pushing aside those sort of strawman defense mechanisms, this is an interesting, if still extremely painful, premise. Hmmmm....
What have you done?
no subject
Date: 2021-05-10 02:20 am (UTC)From:Honestly, if not for work I probably wouldn't really know anybody local either. Except for my best friend, who is now married to my brother askjd;a But I'm also an introvert and prefer being home, so I like that my friendships are (for the most part) online.
Yes, yes, but what if we started to vilify all male characters for being male? What if we said men don't matter?
I've also noticed a lot more posts about how terrible and unlovable men are. They're so gross! Men are just the WORST!
It makes me incredibly uncomfortable to see those posts. Men have many advantages and privileges, but they can also be susceptible to low self-esteem and seeing all this online hate...idk. I honestly think people these days are just losing the ability to appreciate nuance or layers. The ability to be terrible and gross is a human thing not specific to one gender.
I guess the thing with "emotional hook" is subjective. I totally need an emotional hook, and if someone never finds an emotional hook with a female character compelling then I would ask them to examine why that is.
THIS. Because yeah, some people need an emotional hook to want to explore a character, and some don't. But even that requires a deeper examination among the people who do need that hook. Everything is layered and complicated.
Is it weird that this conversation is making me want to read one of the many light romance novels I've bought during quarantine? I wanna read some het romance.
But pushing aside those sort of strawman defense mechanisms, this is an interesting, if still extremely painful, premise. Hmmmm....
I'm thinking about my childhood best friend. I still love them and cherish the memories, but I haven't seen or talked to them in years, so my feelings aren't as immediate or deep as they once were. And I think....well, wouldn't that happen with romantic relationships too? The human brain dulls the memory of pain over time - I know when I bent my collarbone when I was 9 it hurt SO BAD, but when I try to remember how bad it hurt, I can't. So time passes, and Daniel loves Sha're and always will, but as he continues to live his life, the feelings dull. You COULD argue that they reignite once they're reunited if you want a happy ending! But I also think that'd be a process. Daniel has to fall in love a second time, though this time he's got a head start as a part of him still loves her.
Or maybe I'm talking out my ass, I don't know lol.
no subject
Date: 2021-05-10 05:30 am (UTC)From:I generally agree that I prefer a lot of my friends are usually long distance. But the thing with the pandemic making it so that usually is permanently and I also have been unable to earn a regular income for the year makes it seem so far out of reach. Of course, I'm very grateful that I had the option (even if it was more a lack of options in some ways) to stay home until I was vaccinated, but the fact that I haven't been able to earn income in this time no matter what I've tried, really, means that I feel like even if people were to start suddenly doing social events again that I couldn't afford to go.
I just really need to feel like I won't be completely materially alone in every way forever.
I completely agree that posts that are very, like, man-hating make me SO uncomfortable. I like the argument that basically these arguments actually tend to absolve men from any kind of societal pressure to be or do better. If masculinity itself is toxic, and they don't want to become non-masculine or are not afforded that option (by TERFs), what the hell is the point of self-improvement if the people insisting that it is necessary also insist that you're completely incapable of it or that it's a pointless manipulation tactic if you do?
I support your reading endeavors and wish I had the guts to do my own.
1) HOW do you BEND a collarbone?
2) I think these are really interesting points, and I agree that after a time that saving Sha're becomes more of an idea and a moral obligation than about Sha're itself. Even just as a survival mechanism. He would drive himself insane if he didn't compartmentalize it some, and Daniel actually seems to do it HARD after a while.
I generally think what you're saying about your childhood friend makes a lot of sense, too.
However, I think that people being physically intimate in the context of a physical relationship adds a lot of baggage that may not exist otherwise.
I think both these things would be interesting things to explore in fic or something.
no subject
Date: 2021-05-08 06:25 am (UTC)From:I don't think I've ever seen the Stargate movie; saw most of the first 7 seasons of SG-1.
"a naive sort of fetishization of m/m relationships on the part of het girls who had a lot of internalized misogyny"
I would expect also an enjoyment/fetishization of m/m relationships for simple superstimulus reasons like yuri manga or "lesbian porn" for gynophilic men: one hot person good, two hot people better. Maybe it's difference since slashfic is written, but there's imagination...
Gender and media is a bit weird to me since I've watched a lot of anime where males were endangered or nearly absent. Not saying those were perfect but it's a different experience.
I note Jack's house feels lived in: messy table, stuff hanging from the wall, a globe.
no subject
Date: 2021-05-08 09:41 am (UTC)From:Prior to that, it was hard for me to get access to SG-1. Until we moved the summer after I graduated high school, I did not have high-speed internet at home. A year prior to that, I got a laptop for the first time, and there was this funny thing where I could piggyback off some nearby unsecured wifi in my bedroom by being in very specific spots. Truly weird time to live in.
Because of the lack of high-speed internet and the general limitations of the internet around 2009, I couldn't just download episodes easily or anything. Streaming everything was still quite a ways off.
I remember being really into SG-1 when I got my wisdom teeth out. I spent a lot of my recovery time from that surgery over a Christmas break in my bed going back and forth from sleeping a lot to watching Stargate and back again. My mother gave me a teddy bear she had gotten me for Christmas a bit early as a wisdom tooth consolation gift, and I named it Dr. Jackson. Still have Dr. Jackson, and right now in this nostalgic dive that's a very soft memory since I lost my mother not long ago.
Prior to that, though, I COULD rent movies on DVD and I remember renting the Stargate movie first at an uncle's suggestion when my mom told him I was getting really into sci-fi and she didn't know where it came from because neither she nor my father were really into it. So I've seen the movie several times but it was a very long time ago. I definitely prefer the show, but I feel like if a person is going to get into the show that it provides some interesting back story and context.
Anyway.
I didn't mean to suggest that "fetishization of m/m" and "internalized misogyny" were necessary or causally linked all the time, just that fandom used to have a tendency for that to crop up a lot. But as I tried to express, I think that largely came from an era when there had not been the sort of disambiguation of a bunch of distinct gender and sexuality discussions that take place within fandom and life itself today.
Is... this a series/franchise or a genre? If it's a genre that is incredibly bizarre, lol. I know that my best friend received a fic for an exchange gift within the past few years that included an unrequested World of No Men or Endangered Men or something. She took it all in good fun, but it kind of seems like a very opt-in sort of story convention.
And yes, Jack's house makes me want to go back to an era when you just dropped in to see people without it being a societal faux pas.
no subject
Date: 2021-05-08 08:05 pm (UTC)From:Actual titles I've seen:
Nanoha
Madoka
Princess Principal
Rocket Girls
Koisuru in Love
Railgun
Hibike Euphonium
Eizouken
Maria-sama ga Miteru
Sora no Woto
Aria
Bodacious Space Pirates
Taisho Baseball Girls
Bamboo Blade
Also fit:
Sailor Moon
K-On
Love Live
Simoun
Not an anime, and males weren't endangered on "Buffy", but it was a female-majority show. "Angel" and "Firefly" weren't, but "Firefly" had 4 female MCs in the huge ensemble so someone could easily get multiple f/f ships going anyway.
no subject
Date: 2021-05-08 06:31 am (UTC)From:This reminds me of a sentiment expressed in an article in a lifestyle magazine that I read a decade ago, where the author criticized women who described their husband as "their best friend." ("When she says that, all I hear is I don't have any friends." The author was a woman.) Which makes me wonder now if the idea that your husband/wife is not supposed to be your friend but some kind of babymaking apparatus, and that homosocial relations are where true friendships lie, emerged from the initial view of women's worth(lessness) that you describe.
I also agree with you about corporate manipulation, and that m/m relationships in fic have more heart than a lot of what's out there in an official capacity—although some fics have so much hatred for the female characters that I think there's something to the "internalized misogyny" arguments, at least in some instances, and as much as I dislike the contributions of these arguments to today's purity culture.
no subject
Date: 2021-05-08 09:51 am (UTC)From:A lot to unpack.
Internalized misogyny is definitely a societal issue. I know a lot of people get defensive when it's brought up in conjunction with the women favoring m/m ships argument, because there are plenty of other reasons women might enjoy m/m fic more. But sometimes the reasons they prefer it are related to internalized misogyny even if that misogyny is not aggressive and overt "woman-hating."
For example, the idea that one enjoys m/m relationships because one isn't constantly comparing oneself to the female party in the relationship and feeling inadequate is literally the result of the whole misogynistic patriarchal bullshit that pits women against each other as opponents for things like a man's attention and affection, limited available positions of respect available in society or workplace as compared to their male counterparts, etc.
And if a woman finds a break from comparing herself to other women in m/m fiction specifically, I don't begrudge her that, but I think that it just sort of opens a door for like "Maybe we/you need to deal with this for your own sake."
Ultimately, I want people to like whatever they want in fiction, and I don't think it's necessary to be stuck in Critical Engagement Mode all the time. You (general) do not have an obligation to constantly position yourself with ready arguments for the Purity of Intention Inquisition on the social media site of your choice to enjoy a story/trope/thing.
I just think that fandom trends are really fascinating, even if extremely disheartening at times.
On the note of Stargate specifically, I think that it's interesting that Sam/Jack is far and away the more popular ship in fanwork you can find today, the canon ship, even though I remember there once being an environment I caught the tail-end of like a decade ago where m/f was the sort of rarity. I really hate lost media online...